Sunday, May 14, 2006

Mice as "Selves"

In a comment to the previous blog John explained the pains and pleasures of life as imaginations occurring to an ego, which is also only an imagination. He suggests that these imaginations can be made to disappear “by constant enquiry into” the nature of the ego. Pursued to its roots in reality, the ego itself will cease to exist; only the Self will survive.

Some may recognize the Eastern flavor of these ideas. I see them as an expression of the psychology proposed by Spinoza (who perhaps got them secondhand from Eastern sources). The words we hear our “little voice” speaking, the pictures we see with our mind’s eyes, even the feelings of pain and pleasure we experience – all of consciousness exists as fragmentary and confused representations of something we understand perhaps not at all.

The scientific discipline suggests that as we understand more and more of how the world works we draw closer and closer to what reality really is. We see the fact that automobiles will not run without fuel, and by inceasing our knowledge of machines and fuels we feel we have learned more about how the world works. But actually, we have only learned more about how automobiles and fuels interact to produce motion. If we make similar enquiries into the way our minds work, if we try to explain how the brain converts the “fuel” of the senses into conscious and unconscious thought, we eventually see that we are trying to lift our understanding by its bootstraps. We’re using our minds to understand how minds work.

Obviously, this approach to understanding is bound to wind up in a cul de sac. We finally conclude, as John did, that we cannot prove – by the methods of science that we used to understand automobiles and fuels – that our conscious ideas relate in a mirror-like way to real objects. But we can at least say something. We can assert that our senses and the neurological processes they stimulate relate in some way to our conscious imaginations. We may also acknowledge that, even if all the content of consciousness is imaginary, it is nevertheless real.

But just as we see a difference between automobiles and fuels, we may also see that our consciousness of some things differs from our consciousness of others. We may, for instance, be conscious of hunger in a painful sort of way, and we may also be conscious of pain as an idea quite different from an actual pain. We may transcend the direct experience of pain and pleasure and begin to think about those two fundamental emotions as things in themselves. Thus, when John spoke of the “Self,” he was speaking of a transcendent sense of whatever he actually is. He may not have known of what he was speaking (Mr. Wittgenstein) but he did know that he could not have noticed a difference between the imagination of pain and the consideration of pain unless there were in reality a way to speak with authority of things we do not completely understand. John knows whereof he speaks when he says that the ego is an imagination. I’m sure he would acknowledge that the word “imagination” is also an imagination, but that it’s reality comes into being because of the contrast we notice between the “imaginary” reality of the ego and the transcendent reality of the Self.

Spinoza referred to this way of seeing as knowing sub specie aeternitatis, from the viewpoint of eternity. He assumed that all effects have causes and all effects are caused, and proceeded from there to a deduction of Reality (or God) within which ego and Self can be understood as separate sorts of things. Once we make that distinction, and realize that we, and not things “out there,” were responsible for seeing that difference, then the world and our Selves stand in relation to each other in a completely different way.

In God – in reality – good and evil do not exist. Those qualities emerge out of the human condition. Just as an automobile is only a hunk of junk without fuel, so are human beings only blood and bone without their active minds. Pain and pleasure, the ego, and perhaps even the Self may be imaginations, but they are our imaginations. They are ours to manage, ours to manipulate and control, ours to transcend. We may choose – as many have – to regard ourselves as victims of reality (or other people), but the better road opens to us when we see ourselves as creative creatures making, out of what seems real, our own reality. Pain and pleasure may not go away, but we will know them for what they are . . . just friendly little reminders of what is good for us and what is not. And that, of course, is the ultimate of human goodness.

15 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

“imagination” is also an imagination.Yes,very true. Everything is a manifestation of IMAGINATION. Also the TIME, also all your thoughts and your dreams, all your hopes
and ambitions, all your feelings and desires all, all are
manifestations of IMAGINATION.

Liberation from separate isolated individual self encased in skin and
bone is, even if temporarily, is the cause of separate isolated
individual suffering.

To understand that *no-self* simply says that since everyone is
dependently arising with everyone else that there cannot said to be
even one isolated individual self that acts independently? Add to
that the impermanence of the arisings and you come up with the same thing, nothing impermanent can be said to *be* a self.

Imagination can be regarded as a link or a channel to the reality
which exceeds anyone's imagination.

Sun May 14, 05:42:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is only through God that we are able to recognize good and evil. Unless an individual recognizes the righteousness of the Almighty he will not recognize evil.

Sun May 14, 08:20:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

CE: You are absolutely right. God -- the One without which nothing can be or be conceived -- has established the parameters within which we have all evolved and live. And if there be such as blessedness it will be found in the intellectual love of all that is. We cannot know but that we know God.

John: If all causes have effects and all effects are caused, then the whole of everything relates in a meaningful way to everything else. All objects -- all imaginations -- come into being as finite apparencies, temporal modifications of the One that we must conceive of as indivisible and eternal. Within that envelope of knowing -- knowing our finitude and the infnity of God -- we exist as different beings than we would otherwise be. But within what in the east is called Karma. and the Greeks called Fate, and westerners "obey" as the will of God abides the reality of time and space. They may be imagined, but because we are real, even as mystical beings, it is possible for us to understand exactly that we are mystical beings and that time and space are devices demanded by our nature in order that we may know of our existence.

If there remain meaningful questions, they occur within the context of our imagination. We may ask whether the structure of causes possesses meaning in itself, or whether it is all a purposeless and uncaring Cosmos. It does seem strange that the glory we have come to associate with the One could be only an imagination, no more to be valued than the myths of Genesis. But stranger still, we may wonder with the Psalmist why it is that "thou art mindful of" us. Perhaps it is that the majesty we have imagined is all the majesty there is, but it is nonetheless a majesty, and life is all the better for it.

Or so it seems on a cloudless morning.

Mon May 15, 05:15:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If there be such a God then Moral evil would not exist unless God said it exists. He is the originator of the concept. He is also the originator of the concept of moral good. In other words, God determines what morality is.


Cause and effect is the proven system in physics and mathematics. There is no evidence of good and evil, it can not be disproved but it is a logical fallacy to assume a truth based on the inabillity to disprove it.


Negating good and evil this also means there is no such thing as a good or bad reason; reason is the undeniable cause with a 100% chance of causing the effect. Cause and effect does not have to have a beneficial outcome, pain and torture can result from it, so we have to cause the effects that will
benefit ourselves and the world.

Believers who see everything in terms of their deity, see good, bad
and evil in terms of what their doctrine says. Which makes it absolute in their minds. There is no *objective* good or evil.

Mon May 15, 05:19:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

God did not create evil, God created order; when man chose to disobey God evil became the by-product of disobedience.

Mon May 15, 06:25:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ce,The god of the OT,is rather evil,
actually. So we don't have to bother with imagining perfect good.

Omnibenevolence by the way is a pretty new work,late 1800's at best.

Omnipotent. Is 2 + 2 = 4? Why?
Is it god's doing or not? If not, if such things are beyond god, god is limited and not all powerful.
If god is all powerful, he could make make man have free will and freely chose to only do good.
If he does not do this, he is evil.
if he cannot he is not all powerful
and we need not concern ourselves with a claim that cannot be true.

Your logic is based on a simplistic view of the original creation
which is heaven and paradise. Yes, in the original heaven and
paradise, there is no free will to sin or do evil. All are created by
the good will of God, and all follow the good will of God to be happy
in the paradise of God. Unfortunately, we are not in the original
state of paradise anymore. We do not follow the good will of God
anymore. We are given the illusion that we can have our own free will
to go against the good will of God for our own personal interest.

Tue May 16, 06:05:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The God of the OT is not evil, the God of the OT is loving, patient, merciful and slow to anger.What you see in the OT is His righteous judgement acted out on those who continually ho against His goodwill.
Omnibenovolence dates back to creation( not a word I have actually heard before but I get it and disagree with your date); and using our own freewill to go against the goodwill of God is what we call sin- not a path I would reccommend John, but I'm sure you will exercise your own freewill in determining what works for you.

Tue May 16, 08:55:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I cede the floor to the mouse now John, understanding that you will have endless rebuttals based on you mal-formed logic and that no matter how many times your arguments are knocked off thier pegs you will continue to hold onto them because man loves the darkness greater than the light.

So, when you post your next muddled retort, just imagine me saying you are wrong- because infact, that is what you will remain- WRONG!
The floor is your's mouse- I apolgize for turning this forum into the IWON board.

Tue May 16, 09:04:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

No problem, John. All ideas are adequate in God, so they must be adequate for such as a wee bit of a mouse.

Wed May 17, 05:38:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are no basic rules for blogging,whatever the owner of the blog's topics are,then bloggers can comment however they want to.It's really up to the owner to decide what is acceptable.However, rules for blogging shouldn’t exist in the mandated sense.
Ce,You do realise of course, that with the above, you have removed any doubt as to the validity of your claims, as well as showing that you can not converse in civil manner. Now which is more idiotic, believing in a god you can not provide evidence for, or accepting that such a thing is nothing to worry over or believe in? Either way, you lost the discussion & any supposed position of ethical or moral superiority you may have pretended to have. & you did it you yourself.


You see, you can not even tell who or what this god is, & yet, you anticipate that your
continual assertions that it exists will cloud our minds & make us want to believe in it. Why should we, we can see what such a belief has done to the world and pretty it is not.

You are no more civil here than you were on the iwon board.

mouse,I apologise..

Wed May 17, 03:32:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ce,you are wrong,the word omnibenevolence came from One Supreme Being,In his classical treatise Natural Theology (1802),of William Paley. I will tell you each time you are wrong,when you no not what you are speaking of.

Wed May 17, 03:52:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

John here is a direct quote from my next to last post above regarding Omnibenevolence where I say that I have never heard the word before: "Omnibenovolence dates back to creation( not a word I have actually heard before but I get it and disagree with your date);" , since you once again misunderstood what I was saying let me make it clear for you: I have never heard the word omnibenevolence before but the concept, the meaning of the word,what the word represents dates back beyond 1801, where an author puts a name to it. and stretches all the way back to creation. I hope that is clear for you but somehow I doubt you will allow yourself to understand what I am saying, and instead assigning your own warped reality to my thoughts- in other words, WRONG!
Finally your assertion that I have no proof for the God I believe in is also WRONG! I have told you that I have proof, your claim that I do not doesn't change reality. Once again WRONG!
As to my civility I was much kinder to you on the IWON board than you realize, biting my tongue and holding back quite often while you inserted your foot in your mouth.I certainly was much kinder to you than you were to me! I stopped posting on that board to a great extent because it and you bored me. You still bore me and you are still unconcerned about what is true.
In this thread alone you ignored facts, misinterpreted what I said, made false assertions, and used scripture verses to prove a point despite the fact that the scripture you used was unrelated to your point. But once again I will bite my tongue and leave what I really think a matter for your imagination.
BTW CE, not Ce- I understand that you are trying to insult me with Ce and ce but again what you are doing is making yourself look foolish.
Every time you write Ce I think about the periodic table :
Ce-atomic number 58, Cerium is an iron-grey lustrous metal. It is malleable, and oxidises very readily at room temperature, especially in moist air. Except for europium, cerium is the most reactive of the rare-earth metals. It slowly decomposes in cold water, and rapidly in hot water. Alkali solutions and dilute and concentrated acids attack the metal rapidly. The pure metal may ignite when scratched with a knife.

It is the most abundant of the rare earth metals and is found in minerals including allanite, monazite, cerite, and bastnaesite. There are large deposits found in India, Brazil and the USA.

Wed May 17, 07:48:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

LOL,are we having a cock fight here? btw,your name ce is how it shows up on my screen...Why does it bother you so that someone else doesn't agree with your religion?I also disagree with what you say,am I going to be boring too?I know neither of you but blogging is agreeing or disagreeing with the one that writes the blog.

You have a vendetta against this person,it's obvious as hell,shame on you.

Thu May 18, 05:47:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like the way you make those little &'S Robin. How do you and John do that? I can't get my & to look like your's.

Thu May 18, 06:57:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Beats me,maybe we both have the same kind of computer or maybe it's just coincidence,but your's sure do look just like ours.Just exactly like ours in fact,so what's your point?

Using anon then going to CE doesn't change who you are "DOOM".I can't believe you followed me here and are going to harass me.Wanna know why I am responding to you the way I am,your very first response to me here was negative,I know you and I won't let you bug me,you are an ass.

Sat May 20, 01:16:00 PM 2006  

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