Saturday, September 16, 2006

Mouse Makes Amends

I’m told that my previous blog was confusing. I of course disagree, but then who am I to say? I’ll try again.

All of our ideas are formed in our heads. They’re of several sorts.

One: Some of our ideas appear in our heads as words, pictures, and feelings depicting the stuff communicated to us by our senses. Those images etc are always consciously experienced, though we may notice some of them more than others. Nothing in our consciousness of sensate data is explanatory. If we were limited to our senses, we would have no knowledge of the causes of the things we experience. So this is the lowest form of knowledge. For want of something to call such experiences, we may call them “imaginations” or “hearsay” or just raw, unprocessed consciousness.

Two: Some of the words we hear ourselves thinking are of the sort we call “names.” At sometime in our personal past we have learned to connect certain words to certain things. When we see an image that looks like a tree we connect the image to the word. But before we can do this, we – or those who taught us the names – must also have engaged in a third kind of experiencing, called “wonder.”

Three : We wonder what these sensed things are. We may not be conscious of our wonderings, but it seems apparent that our brain/minds are challenged to identify similar things – like different kinds of dogs – and that our brain/minds invent concepts like the word “dog.” We are never conscious of the process that forms concepts, but when the brain/mind is stumped about what to call a thing, we may become conscious of the brain/mind’s problem. That’s what we might call a conscious wondering.

Four: A special form of wondering occurs in our heads when we “hear” ourselves wondering about the why and wherefore of things. These may proceed into actual inquiry, though nothing in the experience of wondering specifies the method by which the why’s and wherefore’s may be sought. One method involves what we have come to call science. Another involves religion. All such methods, however, begin with wonder and proceed through a different form of experience called “theorizing.”

[None of the above involve actual knowledge of causes and effects. They may all be classified as what Spinoza calls “knowledge of the first kind.”]

Five: Theories arise as potential answers to wonderings of why and wherefore. Before the formation of a theory, the mind has been a passive “presenter” of experience, but as it forms its first theory about why or wherefore (or even, “what should I do about this?”), it becomes an active part of the human being, an ally in the human’s need to survive.

[I’m tired of this. The rest should be easy for anyone. The point, though, is that ideas – whatever their form or category – emerge for us out of ourselves. There is nothing like any of the above in the world “out there.” We are the final arbiters of what we believe to be right or wrong for us. If we get it wrong, there will probably be consequences, some bad, some worse, some deadly. The troubles we find in the world – apart from the catastrophic events of nature – have nothing to do with the world itself except as it is manifest in what we are. But that’s common knowledge. We have, however, made the mistake of believing that there’s a fatal flaw in human nature, an “original sin,” as it were. The only flaw we actually have is the one that we have created, the belief that we do not have it in our power to make up a world in which human beings can live together in peace. We’ve come too far from caves and smallpox to accept the notion that we are a species doomed to its own destruction. We need only start recognizing the source of our ideas. None of the ones dealing with “rights” and “religions” have come to us from the mind of God. We made them up, and the sooner we catch on to that the sooner we will begin to approach the boundaries of real salvation.

A commenter to the previous blog said, “In the end, the scriptural exhortation 'to act justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God' is the attitude that will bring peace to the world." He was of course right in the part he quoted, but by referencing a “scriptural exhortation” he has apparently believed that the advice he proffered came from somewhere other than a human being. If so, he’s wrong in one of the deadly ways. He’s also holding on to a notion of God that is as far from reality as I am from a genuine mouse. (The mouse is grey.) When obviously bright people like our anonymous friend wake up to their own power, then, and not before, will the world turn from the destructive path onto which current epistemological beliefs have led it. Selah.
]

13 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah mouse, We don't have reality in our heads - we simply have cognitive
models that may or may not be close to reality. In many cases, things are not either "X" or "not X" - our ideas about reality are deeply influenced by the classifications that we have in our head, which vary between individuals. Things often do not fit into neat classifications, but have blurry edges.


So after having formed our beliefs about the world through this convoluted process, if we think we have some sort of monopoly on reality, then we're just kidding ourselves. None of this discounts the possibility that there
is an objective reality (I think there is), nor that in many ways our ideas may be very close to it. But it does make clear that we don't know reality, we simply have models and concepts in our head that reflect aspects of it
that are meaningful and useful to us.

But then again I could be wrong about it all.

Sat Sep 16, 04:11:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"A commenter to the previous blog said, “In the end, the scriptural exhortation 'to act justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God' is the attitude that will bring peace to the world." He was of course right in the part he quoted, but by referencing a “scriptural exhortation” he has apparently believed that the advice he proffered came from somewhere other than a human being. If so, he’s wrong in one of the deadly ways. He’s also holding on to a notion of God that is as far from reality as I am from a genuine mouse. (The mouse is grey.) When obviously bright people like our anonymous friend wake up to their own power, then, and not before, will the world turn from the destructive path onto which current epistemological beliefs have led it. Selah.]"

and all this is true because you say so...

too,too rich! such assured proclamation coming from a guy who admits that he has know idea
whether what he believes is true or whether what he believes is merely something he has made up...

is this a byproduct of mendacity, or are you just confused?

Sat Sep 16, 05:40:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

CE: But you miss the pont. If what I believe is all made up -- as all of it is except for what must be true to make that statement true -- then the same applies to what you believe. The difference is that my made-up idea is better than yours. It's that simple. Your's just feels better. Your beliefs are grounded in sensuality, mine in reason. It's that simple too. You sense God's presence. I know his presence.

John (A): Very postmodern of you, my friend. But, as you say, if we are able to be deluded then there is a reality within which delusion is possible. To know the reality of that reality is enough to be able to distinguish false concepts of God & reality. Those have been destroying us since we were living in caves.

Sun Sep 17, 10:28:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mouse, how right you are.Interestingly enough, a form of this doctrine has entered Kant's
theory. God, in his metaphysics, represents absolute unity,
toward which all our thoughts strive. It is therefore even for
Kant that we should keep Him in our thoughts even if only
as an Idea of absolute perfection, unity, or whatever absolute
is required for our science to keep its searches on a steady
course. It is even evidenced by physics in its quest for a
Unified Field Theory.

Sun Sep 17, 03:09:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I haven't missed the point- the fact is that if what you say is true you really can't be sure of anything- hence, your self-assured proclamation that I am wrong is only a guess- for all you know I just may be correct.

So I think you missed my point, and your own!

Sun Sep 17, 07:50:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The difference is that my made-up idea is better than yours."mouse

How pee-wee herman of you mouse.
What should I say to this? oh yeah, here's my line-"I know you are but what am I?" me

Sun Sep 17, 08:02:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

CE: "I haven't missed the point- the fact is that if what you say is true you really can't be sure of anything- hence, your self-assured proclamation that I am wrong is only a guess- for all you know I just may be correct."

Take my word for it, if you believe what you wrote in the above quotation, you have missed the point. I would, however, not complain if you said to me that I have not explained my point well enough for you to grasp it. But here it is again, as simply as I can say it. . .

There are some statements that are true because they cannot be doubted. That every effect has a cause is one of them. Newton/Einstein's law of gravity is not one of those statements. As John (A) points out, the philosopher, Immanuel Kant, characterized those "transcendental" statements as unprovable "categorical imperatives of the understanding," statements that all other statements presuppose to be true. They are not true in the same way that the laws of science are true. They simply transcend human understanding. Attempts to prove them true are bound to fail because what we call "proof" relates to "things" for which we have valid names. But we have no valid names for the ideas that exist only in the mind of God. We call them such things as "the law of causes," but our understanding of that law is limited to its application to things.

Now, what does this sort of truth enable us to know. We know by it that our science is limited to explanations of finite things. In other words, our knowledge of the world is limited to those things that we know are merely transitive, here-today-gone-tomorrow things. We cannot know anything beyond that.

That's the point you have not grasped. You seem to believe that you have a knowledge of God, and so far as I can tell, you base that belief on the good feeling you claim to have obtained from your mental encounter with God. Now, if the point you have missed is true, then your claims about God's relationship to humanity is false. There is nothing in the transcendental knowledge of God that tells us anything about how he would have us behave, believe, or worship. We have created those ideas for ourselves out of our study of the things of the world as we can know them. We need no knowledge of God in order to know it is wrong to murder. We need no knowledge of God to know that our lives are finite and we don't like that. We need no knowledge of anything other than the world that we can know to know all that is implied by any of the world's religions. But religionists don't know that. They think that God has spoken to some humans and revealed the facts of life to them. And each band of those misguided souls has set itself apart from the others, "knowing" in their hearts, minds, and souls that the truth has been revealed to them. History to follow.

If you continue to miss the point then you will -- maybe, just maybe -- have a personal revelation of the nature of the world's problem. There's something about the way the human body works that makes it almost impossible for bodies to change from comfortable but false beliefs.

And yes, I believe that your beliefs are false, not because they don't feel good, but because there is no way in this universe that you can possibly know that your beliefs are true.

And if you think that's a contradiction -- that I can't know that my beliefs are any truer than yours -- then you have missed the point, and what's more are probably going to miss it forever.

Mon Sep 18, 09:11:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Our mouse has it right again.The law of karma dictates that everyone suffers or enjoys
according to their own activities. Like if you want to make
it hell for so many animals that you like to eat, you better
be prepared to suffer the reactions.
Some people think that the problem of evil is a barrier to belief in
God.The argument goes like this: A God who is good and loving would not
want evil and suffering to exist. And a God who is all-powerful could
remove all evil and suffering if He so desired. But evil and suffering
continue in the world.Therefore, God (at least a good and all-powerful
God) does not exist.This argument is superficially convincing. It's certainly a valid argument for the non-existence of the omni-God that Christians posit.


I believe the mind is structured to percieve reality, all of it. That is why we have words like Eternal, infinite, immutable, for even though we have never seen any of these things we understand there terms , even if in a negative way. All negative knowledge presupposes positive knowledge of some
kind. You cant say I dont know that, unless you have a least some knowledge of that.

Since Kant, philosophy has had difficulty suggesting that man can know the thing in itself.
I believe he can, because for one to affirm that I cant know the thing in
itself is self defeating. One must know the thing in itself or he could not make the statement, for anything he might know could be knowledge of the thing in itself. If he were to say "I know enough about the thing in itself to know I can not know everything about the thing in itself, this would be quite acceptable.

Mon Sep 18, 02:26:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

Beauiful, John (A).

Mon Sep 18, 03:21:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just as I believe you are going to miss the point forever and without end- you really have no knowledge of what I believe or why, despite the comfortable feelings you get from imagining that you do.
BTW- you boy John doesn't believe that every effect has a cause...

Mon Sep 18, 04:46:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

John- your comments betray your lack of understanding- I would explain where you are wrong but I fear you are just not ready to hear the truth- maybe you never will be, I kant know for sure.

Mon Sep 18, 04:49:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ce you are so closed minded I am surprised you believe the sun shines.John S was right about you, you play the victim so well, you believe your truth is the only truth and I really don't care to understand your truth....

Get it right, I do believe in cause and effects, I don't believe your god being the first cause, talk about not understanding..humph!

Mon Sep 18, 05:05:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And ce, I am not Franks boy thank you, I happen to understand Spinoza and I also happen to believe with his convictions which make a hell'va lot more sense then the religious bible..What pisses you off is that you can't grasp Spinoza or Frank...

Mon Sep 18, 05:11:00 PM 2006  

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