Friday, June 16, 2006

Mouse, Moses, and Messiah

Acknowledgements. The ideas expressed in the following blog were first formulated by Baruch Spinoza in his Treatise on Theology and Politics. To the extent the ideas effectively express the truth, the credit is his. The interpretations and phrasings are of course mine. The reader must, however, take full credit or blame for any discomfort the ideas may produce, since the source of any discomfort produced by ideas is always in the guts of the beholder.


When Moses descended from the mountain bearing the Ten Commandments, he immediately set forth, with authority from on high, to found the Hebrew state. The nation he created was a theocracy. It obtained its authenticity, its direction, and its laws from God. It may be endlessly debated whether the conception of God as a human-like being, created in the first five books of the Bible, is accurate in every respect, but the question is, in any case, moot. The Hebrew people believed what Moses told them. The Hebrew state thus acknowledged the God of Abraham as its God, and obedience to His laws as the obligation of every citizen.

Even a cursory reading of the Torah (especially Leviticus and Numbers) will show that the Mosaic Law consists of many more regulations than the mere ten Moses brought down from the mountain. There are laws governing most of the major relationships between the Hebrew state and its people. Over the centuries the laws listed in the Torah were interpreted and expanded, with the result that by the time Jesus of Nazareth was born, laws and rules existed covering virtually every aspect of Hebrew life.

In a word, the Hebrew state was founded on the notion that its people must be obedient to the law, and because the laws – even those dealing with highly personal matters – were logically derived from interpretations of what were presumed to be God’s laws, to the Hebrew people, disobedience was unthinkable.
But – note well – like any set of laws enforced by any nation, the laws of the Hebrew state demanded observable obedience, behavior that could be seen and heard by one’s fellow Hebrews and the minions of the law. The requirement is typical that heresy (and other violations) could not be prosecuted without the testimony of two reliable witnesses. The Mosaic Law was a just law, and justice was defined as overt conformity to the letter of the law.

Certain of the songs and prayers in the book of Psalms suggest that the Hebrew people were aware of the inner state of their being, but for the most part, those sensibilities represented devotionals to the power and authority of God, and thus to the Mosaic Law. Psalm 23, “The Lord is my shepherd, etc,” identifies the Psalmist as a sheep, who will prosper only if he is completely obedient to God (i.e., the law). The “rod and … staff,” by which the shepherd chastises the herd to keep it together, were seen as comforts. The Psalmist appeared, in that song, to be steeling himself against the strictures and discomforts of the law. The final line – “Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever” – can be understood as his resignation to the will and law of God, however contrary the actualities of the Hebrew nation may appear. The lion’s den and fiery furnace of Daniel can also be understood as encouragements designed to assure the Hebrew people that, despite their obvious tribulations, God will rescue them.

The entire Old Testament appears to be a history of the Hebrew people and their attempts to survive as a theocratic nation. Its repeated failures are invariably interpreted as a backsliding from the law, either by the people or their rulers.

Modern Christian apologists, who argue that Jesus of Nazareth was not a “nation builder,” are essentially correct, but they miss the point entirely if they do not see that he was, in fact, a nation destroyer. Jesus may be correctly interpreted as having said that “the Kingdom of God is not of this earth,” but it would be false to assume that he meant by those words that the kingdom of God was up in the sky somewhere. It was to be here on the earth, but not of the earth. Jesus seems to have intended to locate the law of God, not in an earthly state, but in the hearts and minds of the people. The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 through 7) clearly makes the case that the outward observance of the law is not good enough, but rather the inward ownership of the law as one’s own. The Beatitudes cannot mean that the government bestows blessedness on the meek, the peacemakers, the poor, the mournful, the merciful, and the persecuted. Blessedness is a state of being, a self-acknowledged quality, known – and knowable – only to the person so blessed. Jesus re-centered God’s law. He removed it from the state and placed it squarely on the people themselves.

And, of course, that’s where it had always resided. The Hebrew nation had failed, and states will always fail, when the law appears as an imposition and not as a self-willed ordinance freely adopted by the people. Laws that cannot be explained and understood by reasoning people, laws that seem designed to perpetuate the state rather than its subjects, can never be wholly owned by the people who must – when all is said and done – enforce the laws upon themselves.

Jesus pulled no punches about the difficulty of his gospel. It may be “good news” to righteous people to be told that they are on target, but to those focused on maintaining the integrity of a particular theocratic nation, or to those temperamentally in need of external force to keep them “righteous,” it is certainly not good news to be told that the kingdom of God is nowhere but in themselves.

It was certainly not good news to the Hebrew people to be told that they no longer needed a nation of their own, but could abide in blessedness wherever fortune placed them. Throughout their history, they had seen themselves as a people apart, bearers of God’s message to the world. Now they were being told that the message was not so much a message as a way of relating to God. The God preached by Jesus of Nazareth was not a God speaking to a nation, but was a God speaking directly to the hearts and minds of individual people. His oft repeated quip, “Render unto Caesar those things that are Caesar’s and unto God those things that are God’s,” can be understood (perhaps can be only understood) as a rebellion against theocracy. A man’s relationship to God is private, not subject to the laws of any nation, and no nation obtains its authority and integrity except by the willing commitment of a free and righteous people. We observe the law because we choose to do so, not because we are forced. We are the authority that gives the nation its power.

And therein lies happiness, or blessedness. The free man – which we all are, existentially and without question – is not a slave to the law. He is the owner of the law. If we render to Caesar, it is because we see in our government a means that promotes and enhances our blessedness. If Caesar wants our obedience, then Caesar must recognize our supremacy. When he fails to do so, when he values himself or the state above the people, then Caesar forfeits any expectation of our loyalty. He becomes “chaff,” to be plowed under. He becomes merely another of the errors we the people have made when we have failed to recognize and accept our God-given responsibility. That’s the “good news,” you see: Jesus and his spokesman, the Apostle Paul, were telling us, “You’re in charge. It’s your responsibility to learn God’s will and to implement it. Otherwise, there shall never be a Kingdom of God.”

Yes, happiness is a “warm puppy,” but the warmth emanates inside ourselves. We are the “artists” who create beauty. If there be such as blessedness, we are its creators. God is simply, and only, that which has made blessedness possible.

32 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

mouse The believer's relationship to the law of God has been a long debated subject and a point of division among those who claim to believe the Gospel.
Some claim that God's law is the believer's rule of conduct and obedience.
Their opponents accuse them of being legalists. Others deny that God's
law is the believer's rule of conduct and obedience. Their opponents accuse them
of being antinomians (without law). Some claim that New Testament believers are still under the Ten Commandments as a rule of conduct while others claim that New Testament believers are not under the Ten Commandments. Some say
that Christ, not the law, is the believer's rule of conduct and
obedience.

The controversy could be settled by right definitions of the law and
the Gospel. God's Gospel is the preaching of the particulars concerning God's promise of salvation conditioned on Christ alone, based upon Christ's
righteousness imputed to sinners. Everyone who truly believes this
promise knows the God who made the promise and therefore should expect God to fulfill it.

Sat Jun 17, 04:46:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

John(A): Their confusion arises from the very term they use, "God's Law." God, being God, does not make laws that can be broken. The laws in the Torah are essentially men's laws, since there is not one of them that cannot be broken. After we see God's laws for what they are, confusion diminishes.

I would love to be able to say that confusion goes away, but given that we are -- and perhaps forever will be -- in the process of learning God's immutable laws, some confusion will persist. Consider, for example, the law of causes, that every effect has a cause. Mr. Hume noticed (correctly) that the law of causes could not be proven, but must be merely assumed if any of what we call knowledge is to survive. It did not occur ro Hume to take Spinoza seriously and conclude that the law of causes might be one of God's laws, an immutable and eternal fact that is a mere given. Herr Kant, trying vainly to squirm out of the anomaly Hume had created, completely muddied the waters of knowing. So-called "post-modernism" is the ultimate effect of those two gentlemen's grovelling about in skepticism.

Consequently, not only are Christians confused about the nature of the law, serious philosophers are too. Following Kant, and his "step child" Wittgenstein, philosophers have been bogged down in a search for "meaning" in its simplest form: they claim not to know what words mean (expressing their confusion in well chosen words). Spinoza's is a philosophy of ultimate realism. He accepts as "incomplete, fragmented, and confused" the concepts produced by the words and pictures of consciousness, but finds ultimate meaning in the conceptions of thought that must in fact exist as God's Law, and without the reliability of which neither we nor our confused ideas could exist.

In short, if the law of causes truly reflects a "thought" in the mind of God, the Logos follows. If it does not, if in fact causeless effects exist, then the search for truth is doomed and the notion that the word "God" might have a meaningful meaning is groundless.

Spinoza's God is in fact Love, since without the orderliness produced by the unchanging laws of the unchanging God, hate would be God's law and life would be as empty as some existentialists imagine it. God is Love because he does not play silly games at the level of ultimate concern.

Y'all have a nice day. I gotta catch a plane today to fly out to San Diego for my youngest grandchild's high school graduation.

Sun Jun 18, 05:28:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, F18 and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause F19 shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, F20 'You shall not commit adultery.' F21 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality F22 causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' F23 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor F24 and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, F25 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren F26 only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors F27 do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Sun Jun 18, 02:19:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

Yes, CE, we make vaues. I think that is, in summary, what Jesus has said there on the mount. And, yet . . .

Well, I was going to say something derogatory, but thought better of it. You know as well as I do that Jerry Falwell and his ilk are as far from being Christian as "Hyperion from a satyr."

Mon Jun 19, 10:39:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know Jerry Falwell; but I was fascinated when some years ago I saw him on 'Larry King Live'with Larry Flynt( you probably remember that Falwell sued Flynt for printing an inflamatory "ad" in which Jerry's mother was insulted- Flynt prevailed on the basis that satirical speech can not be considered libelous) . Anyway, what fascinated me was that Flynt and Falwell had become friends to the extent that each had the other as a guest in thier home(s).It seems from this example that Falwell was able to reach the nobler call of towards forgiveness and to love one's enemy( this also must apply to Flynt, but since his character is not being questioned...). So I would say that perhaps Mr. Falwell subscribes to the notion that one can hate a practice in theory, but, as a Christian, he can not afford to do anything less than love individuals who live the hated practice.Nonetheless, even if Falwell is closer to your assumption of him then I imagine, the validity of Christ's words does not rise and fall on the behavior of any individual.

Then again, I don't know Falwell...

Mon Jun 19, 12:03:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mouse- God, being God, does not make laws that can be broken.

One would think that to be true,so why then are all the laws in the bible broken by man?Jerry Falwell was a good example,as too the Bakkers and others.But we can't forget the general lay person that believes themselves to be pure in thought and actions.

Cause and effect must be God's law,let me try and explain:In Romans 1 Paul uses the Causal or Cosmological Argument for God's
existence. It is an argument from origins. Look at the universe ... it must have come from somewhere ... it came from God.

It doesn't work for the following reasons:

1. Although it may establish a deity it says nothing about the type or
nature of the deity. It would work equally as well for Zeus or a little
green alien as YHWH.

2. It leads to an infinite regress. If the universe is made by God then
who made God? The God above God. Who made the God above God? The God
above the God above God. etc ad infinitum. (This is one reason why God is NOT "A being" but rather the Ground of all being.)

3. How do we know everything has a cause? From experience. Experience
tells us nothing about causality in the non-empirical world. Even in the empirical realm experience is based on induction and deduction and both are logically faulty for any absolute claim in all areas of past, present and future.

The nature of being is a unity,First Cause or God—the absolute essence of all that is. It is the universal I Am.Cause and Effect.It is the only power in the universe that knows itself.

Metaphysics begins where physics leaves off. Everything is movement; everything we can take hold
of and analyze, all things in the physical world or the world of form
are in a certain rate of vibration and are an effect. This is the result of "an Infinite Thinker thinking mathematically." To reduce this proposition to the practical life of the individual, our belief is that anything the mind thinks, it can unthink. If, therefore, by the law of cause and effect we have produced unpleasant conditions, we should be able by this same law to produce an entirely different effect.

Enjoy yourself mouse,have a safe trip back.

Mon Jun 19, 06:21:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It leads to an infinite regress. If the universe is made by God then
who made God? The God above God. Who made the God above God? The God
above the God above God. etc ad infinitum. (This is one reason why God is NOT "A being" but rather the Ground of all being.)" JA

If everything must have a cause what caused the Universe?

Mon Jun 19, 09:26:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wait I know your answer: "... what caused the Universe?"

You (imagined by me): the first cause...

Me: Then what caused the first cause? The cause before the first cause? And what caused the cause before the first cause, the cause before the cause before the first cause? So you see, despite the fact that even the brighest mathematical mind can't wrap itself around such an awesome truth, at some point there must just Be...

Mon Jun 19, 10:15:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

John(S): It follows from the belief that God's laws are inviolable that the "laws" specified in the Torah are not the laws of God. They are ordinances devised by men as a means to establish and maintain order is a universe that knows them not.

Your comments on the infinite regress are, of course, on target.
Neither Spinoza nor any other philosopher or theologian has ever broken out of that trap. Spinoza did what he could by identifying everything that is as God, and declaring God infinite. End of regress, but not the end of the mystery.

CE: We value what gives us joy, and detest what gives us sorrow. While I found some joy in the little story you told of Jerry's amd Larry's friendship, Herr Falwell remains to me a source of sorrow. Hitler, I am told, was genuinely fond of animals.

Tue Jun 20, 09:20:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mouse,are you confusing me again with John Sweden?

ce,it's only because you believe in the God that you do that makes you not to understand science.We're
living in an age where Quantum Mechanics shows that there are all sorts of uncaused effects - aka the tunneling effect! We know for a fact that on a subatomic scale anything can happen for no reason!

A first cause Is not even an argument, let alone the "proof" you imagine it to be,to prove your God.

It seems religion always want to explain that Gods*special*. He's
the uncaused cause of it all. Combine that with QM and you get a billion people worshipping quantum fluctuations.


When people arrive at a belief for non-rational reasons, rational
arguments will not dissuade them from that belief.If the Universe requires a Creator, then why doesn't God require one? If God doesn't require a Creator, then why does the Universe? How can you justify such an obvious double standard?


We weren't given all the answers carte blanche on a silver platter.
That's what happens to ideas when not everything about the issue in
question is known. They change, they evolve. And they don't stop
evolving until 100% of the possible knowledge about the issue has been
attained.

Tue Jun 20, 04:14:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"A first cause Is not even an argument, let alone the "proof" you imagine it to be,to prove your God." John A

I didn't mention a "first cause", nor do I need it to prove the existence of The God- the term is not in my vocabulary; however, since you mentioned a first cause in juxtaposition with the argument that God must have had a cause, I asked the logical question: what caused the first cause?

The fact that you can't answer given your insistance that everything must have a cause is understandable, it seems that once again your illogic has caused you to paint yourself into a corner. But still John, what caused the first cause?

BTW Evolutionary Science must at some point contradict Biological Science because it believes that, if you go back far enough, life came from something that was not life...

Tue Jun 20, 09:18:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

benedict s
Luckily for me I am not vested in Mr. Falwell; my faith is in no way dependent on his behavior be it palatable to you or otherwise. I am not a follower of man, I am a follower of Jesus Christ ...

People have hated me, mocked me, looked down on me, insulted me and challenged me for expressing my faith; and yet here I am still trusting in the God of my fathers. Those less orthodox than I have claimed that my orthodoxy proves that I am not a true believer and yet I stand.
So you don't like Jerry Falwell, what does that mean? What's the point, do his shortcomings invalidate my faith? If so what of the attributes of say a Mother Theresa, do they revalidate my faith?Does one Mother Theresa cancel out a Jerry Falwell and a Jimmy Swaggert? Not at all, my faith rests on the works and the person of Jesus Christ, and in Him alone do I put my trust. If that makes me a fool, I am a fool for him. If that makes me less than human to some, if it makes me the target of vitriolic for some I will bear it for Him. I would, indeed, go through life cut off from all humanity for the sake of my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Have a good night, tommorrow I am of to the shore to celebrate my daughter's graduation from the Eighth Grade; we enjoyed a beautiful Catholic Mass to mark the event last Thursday.

Tue Jun 20, 09:45:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ce why are you such a ass? Why do you have so much anger towards someone that doesn't agree with your religion,it's obvious as hell that you dispise John America.

Watch out,I am 22 y/o and I don't demand the respect or dignity you older folks here expects from us writers.

Assuming the universe started with a Bang, there was no first cause
with intent and intellect. There is no before the beginning. Time
starts with the space-time manifold. Without space-time, there is no
time, there is no dynamics, no thought, no intellect, no emotion.

Stop trying to anthropomorphizing the universe. The universe is much
more grand than that. Humans are "built" insane, this includes anthropomorphizing and
personification. There is less opportunity to stop our brain
structure based behaviors than there is to cut off our nose.

Wed Jun 21, 02:20:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks Robin but you need not defend me,it would take more than ce has to give to offend me.

ce you were mocking me as usual and I didn't paint myself into a corner,your answer is enough for me to know you don't understand so to cover yourself you use mockery.

"Perhaps the simplest and easiest to understand is the argument of
the First Cause. (It is maintained that everything we see in this
world has a cause, and as you go back in the chain of causes further
and further you MUST come to a First Cause, and to that First Cause
you give the name of God.) ...you can see that the argument that
there MUST be a First Cause is one that cannot have any validity. ...
The idea that things MUST have a beginning is really due to
the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste
any more time upon the argument about the First Cause." --Bertrand Russell "Why I Am Not a Christian"

That being said, the first cause, i.e. what caused the first cause,
need not imply divinity in any sort of conventional sense of the word.
There is the possiblity that inflation, which drove the Big Bang, is an infinitely regressive phenomena spawning new Universes all the time,(just ones we can't see).

As a person who believes in science and reason, I know that it is impossible to prove it is
anything other than a natural phenomena (even if it is uncaused :)).

Wed Jun 21, 03:59:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know what Robin you don't know me or John America. in the future don't curse at me or call me names- the fact that we are on a BLOG is not cause to suspend common courtesy- so watch your mouth and don't be so disrespectful to a fellow human being!

Wed Jun 21, 08:43:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The idea that things MUST have a beginning is really due to
the poverty of our imagination."

John America- can't you see that this statement supports my idea that God does not need a cause?

For an older gentlemen you are overly sensitive to criticism of your ideas- playing the victim does not become a person of your stature since you know as well as I do that you have been just as combative with me that I have been with you. The only difference being that I haven't resorted to calling you an ass or a jerk- grow up fella. I've tried to tell you from the start that my comments are about your ideas not your persona. I wouldn't know you if I fell over you ...


BTW as I have told you before just because you don't understand, or even know my reasons for believing don't assume they are not rational, the fact is I have very sound rationale for my faith!

Wed Jun 21, 08:52:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BTW the point of my quoting Matthew 5 was to show that Jesus was calling Christians to a greater adherence to the law : "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

My original post was a quotation of scripture related to the mouse's BLOG and presented without comment, anyone with eyes should have been able to get the correlation; but of course the point(that Jesus called Christians to a greater understanding and a deeper adherence to the LAWS of GOD) was lost in the smoke and mirrors created in the cult of personality that conversations like this often descend into.

"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Wed Jun 21, 09:08:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“And Yet”…? No Mouse there are no “and yets”, “buts” or “maybes”. To be a Christian by definition you have to accept the words and follow the teachings of Christ. CE has his point here. After all how can you trust the words of a man (Saul) who, after his hallucinatory bout of heat stroke induced grandiosity, claims Jesus has a change of mind and now wants him, as the new improved, re-packaged Saul to Paul, not Peter, to found his church. And if we can’t trust him as a definer of what it means to be Christian, what do we make of a Spinoza or a Bush, whom god told to invade Iraq, while giving him the power to look into men’s eyes and determine the quality of their souls.

John A: I think CE has point when he describes god as sort of non-descript generic field or plane from which things can emerge. It appeals to my sensitivity and experience as artist. Kandinsky, Mondrian, Reinhardt and others offered concrete proofs that art was both a spiritual and a hyper-reality. In fact Reinhardt’s black squares could be the image of god.

Robin: You have every right to use whatever terminology your 22 year-old Socially Darwinistically determined biological brain is capable of generating.

CE: You seem to be the only one playing the victim gambit here. “People have hated me, looked down on me, insulted me and challenged me for expressing my faith; and yet….blah… blah…blah….blah.” Bring on the lions.

Now for real time sobering look at where all this religious first cause and effect is taking us, I advise you all to check out this article in yesterday’s Los Angeles Times.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-endtimes22jun22,0,7902314.story?coll=la-home-headlines

If it doesn’t load up directly go to http://www.latimes.com and go to

- 'End Times' Religious Groups Want Apocalypse Soon

Wed Jun 21, 11:28:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

John S : I am not a victim and that is why I refuse to lie down while individuals attack my faith and hate me merely for believing and expressing what I believe. It is cute how you have twisted my words and used my arguments to endorse those who I was refuting, cute but nothing new. I suppose I should go back and attack each of your points- god has a Big G because it refers to a specific god, no He is not a non- descript generic plane, Paul and Peter both had thier places in the church, Paul experienced Christ not a heat stroke and so forth, but I won't bother since at some point it is apparent that throwing one's pearls before swine is a waste of precious time. But thank you for proving my point that individuals will attack Christians for the sake of thier Christianity since the entirety of your post has been dedicated to doing just that.
Forget about the points I did make: if the "First Cause" didn't need a first cause then logically it would follow that a Creator God need not have a first cause either; or my original point that Jesus was calling Christians to a greater adherence to a higher law. Those points, the first made after a comment not entirely related to the Bloggers text, the second made in a totally relevent reference to the blog won't be addressed because they make too much sense; rather let's see what some fringe end times groups are doing or hoping for, that'll bring the Christian down.
As for me, I won't read your links because I know what I believe and why. I am not anxious for any person or the world as a whole to meet a destructive end. As a matter a fact, I live my life in hope that somehow everyone will be spared. I live my life trying my best to treat everyone with respect and to give back to my community as much as possible. But I guess that doesn't matter since I hold these beliefs that are so detestable to you. Welcome to 'The He-Man Christian Haters Club 'John S- thanks for proving one of my points, in fact you are the only one who even addressed one of my points- but trust me I am no victim.
Oh and Robin, I suppose I am an ass ; first for responding to the original Blog against my better judgement, and second for assuming that cival discourse can take place between individuals with such disparate views.So you go ahead and be as disrespctful as possible I should be stoned for my beliefs...

Thu Jun 22, 07:40:00 AM 2006  
Blogger Benedict S. said...

CE: You quoted one of my favorite people: "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." But then you say that this quotation reaffirms his commitment to an even stronger adherence to the law. In a manner of speaking you may be right, but I see it differently.

Think of it this way. We have a law that says drive on the right-hand side of the road. Now in reaction to this law you either drive on the RH side or you don't. It is a "digital" law, not "analog." So, there is, in the same manner of speaking, no way to strengthen your obedience of the law. You either obey or you do not.

Jesus, however, was not talking about merely obeying the law; he was referring to the inner sense in which a person holds the law. If we obey the law simply because we fear punishment, then we are relating to the law in the pre-Christian sense; that is, in the overt, observable, and thus unpunishable sense of "keeping the law." The person who keeps the law in that respect may never be a happy camper, since to him the law will always seem his master and he its slave. In that very real sense, that sort of person will never "enter the kingdom of heaven."

But if we see ourselves in the context of the human condition and the law as a means we have devised to order our lives in an effective manner, then the law becomes our creature, and thus (in a way) our slave.

To the external world, our relationship to the law will appear not to have changed, but to ourselves, we will seem remarkably different. We will not see the law as anything other than a useful device. Our actions may (with our consent) be restrained by the law, but the law will then in no sense inhibit our happiness.

This way of thinking about the law exemplifies Spinoza's discussion of the difference between an active and a passive mind. The passive mind is controlled by external forces over which it apparently has not control, whereas the active mind has, in effect, seen with inquisitive eyes.

It was clearly Spinoza's understanding of that difference that led him to have a much higher regard for Jesus than for Moses and the prophets. The law had made the Jewish people its victims. The God of the Old Testament demands obedience, and to the extent the Hebrew preople were obedient, they might be said to have fulfilled their part of the covenants they made with God.

Jesus thus did not mean to say that the laws should be broken, but rather that we should actively form our own personal view of the law and, in a sesne, make the law our own. How else understand his obvious breaking of certain of the Sabbath laws than but to understand the law as he did, that man was not made for the law, but rather the law was made for man. He did not add "by man," but in my opinion, he could have.

Jesus spoke to inner man. Moses to the outer. By Jesus' time Moses' method had already failed.

Too many of Jesus' present day followers remain slaves to the law, rather than its masters. Their mistake traces directly to their treatment of the words printed in the Bible as God's words. They are thus as much passive to the word as the Hebrews were to the law. Until a critical mass of humankind wakes up to what Jesus was truly speaking of, humanity will remain in slavery and shall in no way "enter the kingdom of God."

After they do wake up, the hard (but easier) work can begin. We can set out to make a body of law that will seem to have emerged from the collective conscience of humankind. (The last is a paraphrase of something writ by Immanuel Kant.)

Thu Jun 22, 10:44:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ce,it's not what you say,it's how you say it,I read John A.reply to mouse not as a put-down to your or anyone's religion but only as a generic reply to his original post.You seem to take everything personal when there isn't an attack against you at all.You make it personal and I will be respectful when respect is deserved.

John S.I read the site you listed and for my 22y/o mind(with my high IQ)I found the article to be quite exhilarating funny.The Christians of the world seem desperate,maybe science is gaining a foothold after all,logic and reason rule man.The coming of Christ isn't ever going to happen.Why do we need to sacrifice innocent animals to satisfy the return of Christ anyway? FRom the site:"And it's always been an ultimately bloody hope, a slaughterhouse hope," he added with a sigh. "What we have now in this global age is a vaster and bloodier-than-ever Wagnerian version. But, then, we are a very imaginative race."

Apocalyptic movements are nothing new; even Christopher Columbus hoped to assist in the Great Commission by evangelizing New World inhabitants.

Thu Jun 22, 11:12:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with you and Spinoza in regard to what Jesus was calling us to do; not having read Spinoza I think that what you have described as his understanding of what Jesus was saying is pretty much in line with my understanding.
However, I disagree that" the God of the Old Testament" demanded obedience in a way that differed from what Jesus called for.Whether one is living in the New Testament or the Old Testament,the difference has always been the way people have responded to God's love, and not in the law.In regard to this truth, I will once again say that I agree with your statement that many of Jesus's modern followers remain slaves to the law, and essentially that makes them no different than those who were slaves to the law in Moses's day.But, even in Moses's day there were many who followed after God's call for reformation from the inside out. In essence, to my mind, it was not Moses who perverted the law but those who heard Moses and did not understand what God sought to teach us through Moses...

Thu Jun 22, 11:15:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a caveat that I thought of when writing the above post but wanted to keep seperate because I view this as a side issue: it is true that the law of Moses extends well beyond the Ten Commandements into intricate ordinances regarding dietary law and laws of civil conduct, etc.; each of these ordinances served a practical purpose for that society ...

Thu Jun 22, 11:21:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a caveat that I thought of when writing the above post but wanted to keep seperate because I view this as a side issue: it is true that the law of Moses extends well beyond the Ten Commandements into intricate ordinances regarding dietary law and laws of civil conduct, etc.; each of these ordinances served a practical purpose for that society ...

Thu Jun 22, 11:21:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The second caveat was an unintended computer glitch, please feel free to delet it and this post. Thanks, Carl

; )

Thu Jun 22, 11:23:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robin, you know not of what you speak in regard to John A and I; we have a long and blody history to which I am assuming that you have not been privy. And you will refrain from calling be names, and cursing at me or you will be ignored regardless of whether your 22 y/o high IQ has anything pertainent to say or not. Restraint is the only thing at this moment keeping me from treating you with the respect YOU deserve.

Thu Jun 22, 11:32:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ce you are to full of yourself and never threaten me again.You claim to have found the *Truth* don't you? You claim you practice the *one true religion* don't you. Don't you claim all other beliefs are inferior to yours.You claim to be in personal contact with the Creator of the universe don't you? What more extravegant claim is there? It is the claim of superiority that I take exception to. It cannot be supported as anything other than subjective. You want to say it is your way - fine. But to say it is THE WAY
is arrogant and pure nonsense.


Science has answers for the origin of life, our "special purpose", and morals.
These are no longer unknowables, to be handed off to the mumbo-jumbo
folks.

Evolution particularly destroys the concept of humans having a "special
purpose". We were not created, we were not designed: we are here by
accident and luck. If the Make Believe Pal were real, we would have
been a total surprise to him: "Looky what growed here!".

No special purpose.

The problem for believers is that they (and I assume you) have
such a strong emotional attachment to the belief system
that a detached consideration is impossible. Believers seek
out opinions that reinforce conclusions already made.
Believers are not so much seeking truth as they are seeking
to maintain a non-rational belief that has great emotional
force in their lives.

Thu Jun 22, 02:15:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AAnd what does this relate to ce?Robin, you know not of what you speak in regard to John A and I; we have a long and blody history to which I am assuming that you have not been privy.

This makes not a lick of sense to me!

Thu Jun 22, 02:21:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

{ Yawn } !!! Where is Senor' Doom when you need him?

Thu Jun 22, 08:15:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hej CE: “Welcome to 'The He-Man Christian Haters Club 'John S”. Well thanks for the invite but have to decline. I wasn’t aware that you were a member, but now that I think about it and after re-reading your responses to others and me it seems you might be the perfect poster boy for the club. I don’t hate christianity, but I am wary of christians like you, who can’t read, are rigid, and deeply paranoid with a full-blown persecution complex and wear their religions on their sleeve in such a way as to invite and incite negative responses and then falsely claim they are persecuted for their beliefs.

For the record I just happen to believe that for real christians the bible begins with Mathew and ends with the book of Acts, which contain the actual words of christ as he walked the earth. For a real christian everything thing else in the new testament, other than the real words of Jesus, are just attempts to distort his message for some other purposes. Usually based on hallucinations, nightmares, dreams and the personalized advice of itinerant preachers. For a real christian everything in the old testament is just the stories and fables of the Jewish people and their version of a god. Usually based on hallucinations, nightmares, dreams and the personalized advice of itinerant prophets. A real christian, secure in his faith, has no need or desire to argue about god as a first or last cause, intelligent design, homosexual marriage, etc. etc. or use the bible as a proof in meaningless secular arguments. It makes a mockery of their faith. Being a real christian is an act of faith not a rational argument. A real christian lives his life in a quiet and humble way as an affirmation of thier faith. A real christian has no need of preaching, politicizing and proselytizing his beliefs, as his life is lived in such testament, as to value of his faith, that it invites inquiry not persecution. I believe those who hate Christianity, the most, are not those who challenge the distorted premises and beliefs of self-proclaimed christians, but those who in accepting christ as their savior, cannot simply accept the actual words of christ as only real basis of their faith and their lives.

As for reading comprehension, Robin called you an ass, nobody called you a jerk. and I’ll just quote your version of a good christian’s response, I am “throwing one's pearls before swine”.

This is your statement not mine, “This is one reason why God is NOT "A being" but rather the Ground of all being” and I accepted it as valid point as way of describing what is unknown maybe for the moment…maybe forever.

You cannot come out here and say things in public and then when challenged run and hide behind the argument that you and John A are having a private conversation. If you want to do that just e-mail him and stop taking up public space.

Robin: I’ll respond to you in more detail in a separate post. Keep laughing and keep a wary eye, as science does not have a firm, if any, grip on the reins of civilization.

Thu Jun 22, 11:26:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes John, you know me so well.

I will continue to be wary of individuals like you who believe that thier particular bias is supreior to my particular bias while disliking me for having a particular bias. As to my reading comprehension, it is fine; some on this board know exactly what I am talking about when I say I was called a jerk. As to proselytizing, where did I do it? I responded to a post, is it only proselytizing if you don't like the response? As to hiding behind John A, my point is that Robin does not have insight into our relationship and should not be taking such great offense on his behalf. As to my quote about throwing pearls before swine, I suppose you would have preferred that I just called you an ass.

Fri Jun 23, 07:25:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BTW: this is exactly why people of every stripe- religious, nonreligious, and irrreligious; left and right, etc. form tight knit communities and keep to themselves- civil discourse is seldom possible...

Fri Jun 23, 07:33:00 AM 2006  

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