Of Mice and "Worms"
[The following story appeared in the most recent issue of “The Madison Eagle,” our local newspaper. It was written by Reverend John D. Storey. I trust some of you will enjoy the story and learn as much from it as I have. The rest can disagree with Rev. Storey’s approach to and understanding of the “worm” problem. I’m sure he won’t mind.]
How should we respond to an invasion of personal space?
Recently, on early morning walks, I have noticed something strange. There have been countless earthworms struggling to find their way off the pavement.
Now, I know that worms often leave their habitat during heavy rain and end up washed onto parking lots and sidewalks, but these sightings occur when there has been no rain. Maybe these wrigglies are disoriented; maybe they are participating in some ancient spring mating rite; maybe they are responding to overpopulation and are following some pioneer worm seeking new and greener pastures; maybe the economy of their roadside patch has worsened; maybe they are trying to join family that have already made the journey.
Or maybe they are simply following the example of the proverbial chicken.
No matter their motivation, the end result is that many do not complete their journey before the morning sun dries the dew, with the result that they end up stuck on the road – literally! And here is where I face a dilemma of values. What should I do about this invasion of my space?
The worms offend my sense of aesthetics, as well as my desire to walk the earth without treading on other beings. I find myself torn between irritation at having to step over or around them and my inner impulse to compassion.
Is there some way I can help these little ones? Would they appreciate it if I tried?
Perhaps I could build a security fence along the road with no trespassing signs attached (for their own good, you understand). But, of course, they probably don’t read English, and they would just tunnel under the fence anyway.
Or, I could transport the worms back into the ditch so that at least a few could survive. But I’ve decided this won’t work either, as the worms will probably just start their migration over again. Could I mark each one in some manner so that I could check their legitimate right to be on the road after having been deported to their proper place?
Another approach has occurred to me: Worms are well known to be hard workers who ask for little compensation; perhaps I could just take them all home and give them jobs as gardeners. Surely I wouldn’t have to withhold payroll taxes or workers’ comp – after all it would be an underground economy.
I don’t expect I’ll do any of the above. I’ll probably just continue walking around their struggles and complaining about how crowded the road is getting, what with bugs and birds and fox and deer and possums. Eventually I won’t notice the worms anymore and they will continue to do what the worms of the world have always done – create the very ground we walk upon from what the rest of nature casts off.
And maybe that’s all I can learn from this: That perhaps from God’s perspective, worms are people too; that perhaps, from God’s perspective, worms are as valuable as I am; that perhaps I don’t own the road after all.
How should we respond to an invasion of personal space?
Recently, on early morning walks, I have noticed something strange. There have been countless earthworms struggling to find their way off the pavement.
Now, I know that worms often leave their habitat during heavy rain and end up washed onto parking lots and sidewalks, but these sightings occur when there has been no rain. Maybe these wrigglies are disoriented; maybe they are participating in some ancient spring mating rite; maybe they are responding to overpopulation and are following some pioneer worm seeking new and greener pastures; maybe the economy of their roadside patch has worsened; maybe they are trying to join family that have already made the journey.
Or maybe they are simply following the example of the proverbial chicken.
No matter their motivation, the end result is that many do not complete their journey before the morning sun dries the dew, with the result that they end up stuck on the road – literally! And here is where I face a dilemma of values. What should I do about this invasion of my space?
The worms offend my sense of aesthetics, as well as my desire to walk the earth without treading on other beings. I find myself torn between irritation at having to step over or around them and my inner impulse to compassion.
Is there some way I can help these little ones? Would they appreciate it if I tried?
Perhaps I could build a security fence along the road with no trespassing signs attached (for their own good, you understand). But, of course, they probably don’t read English, and they would just tunnel under the fence anyway.
Or, I could transport the worms back into the ditch so that at least a few could survive. But I’ve decided this won’t work either, as the worms will probably just start their migration over again. Could I mark each one in some manner so that I could check their legitimate right to be on the road after having been deported to their proper place?
Another approach has occurred to me: Worms are well known to be hard workers who ask for little compensation; perhaps I could just take them all home and give them jobs as gardeners. Surely I wouldn’t have to withhold payroll taxes or workers’ comp – after all it would be an underground economy.
I don’t expect I’ll do any of the above. I’ll probably just continue walking around their struggles and complaining about how crowded the road is getting, what with bugs and birds and fox and deer and possums. Eventually I won’t notice the worms anymore and they will continue to do what the worms of the world have always done – create the very ground we walk upon from what the rest of nature casts off.
And maybe that’s all I can learn from this: That perhaps from God’s perspective, worms are people too; that perhaps, from God’s perspective, worms are as valuable as I am; that perhaps I don’t own the road after all.
posted by Benedict S. at 8:35 AM
28 Comments:
If god actually had a perspective, being everywhere kind of prohibits that, he would have struck the good reverend dead on the spot for not helping the worms get safely to the other side. A truly religious and christian thought that obvioulsy never entered his heretical mind, because he was so busy trying to make some ridiculous earthy metaphor.
Good lord mouse! What could you have possibly learned from this? I give, you can bring on all the Spinoza you want. Just please, please, I beg of you, no more of this drivel. You’ll have me booking front row seats to the DaVinci Code, the remake of “Omen 1”, plus renting the “Chico and the Man” and moving over to “One Cosmos”, just to invigorate my mind, cleanse my soul ,and restore my faith that the world, it’s worms, the reverend, the Dali Lama and now you, are worth saving.
I think you all should be out baking cookies.
No John Sweden,the worms reproduce quickly,kill off thousands and thoudands more will replace them,quicker than a blink of an eye.
Wouldn't it be better if they could follow the immigration laws, get a
passport, or a green card? It seems they could travel to far away
lands, more easily, if they would follow the laws. So what is the
problem, worms have about following laws?
Freedom is not free. Freedom costs blood and suffering. Freedom belongs
to those who want it, badly enough to fight and die for it. Do you want
freedom or oppression?
John(S): Rev. Storey was writing to an audience that is perhaps more of Miss Robin's opinion than she is. He clearly intended by his piece to get that group of people to start thinking in a broader way, a broader "perspective" if you will. You're taking him to task for not being farther to the left. In his heart, he may be, but it's not likely he could have led anyone to a deeper consideration by rubbing their lack of perspective in their faces.
As witnessed by Robin's reply, it's obvious that Rev. Storey got it right: we are facing a moral dilemma. We certainly beleive we ought to obey the laws of the land, and that others should also, but as you observe, there is the deeper obligation to help others to "get safely to the other side." Rev. Storey, as a minister, has tried to get people to see the dilemma. Not everyone in the world -- and certainly not in Madison County -- is so liberal in their beliefs as you may be. (I'll not comment on your distaste for "earthy metaphors"; you're entitled.)
Spinoza's God may not have a perspective, but Benedict was of the opinion that human beings could enjoy true blessedness by seeing things as God would see them if he did have a perspective. Spinoza, a cautious sort (and a stranger in a strange land), would have come down on the side of keeping the law. But even after we have committed ourselves to do the right thing, we still face situations of the sort presented by illegal immigration. The "right thing" remains obscure. The conflict is real between obedience to the law and obedience to a higher calling. I suppose Rev. Storey could have pretended there was no conflict, and have taken a stand squarely on what appears to be his Christian belief that the immigrants ought to be afforded the benefit of the doubt. But his mission is to lead others to see the dillemma, which they currently do not. Maybe he succeeded and maybe he didn't, but he gave it a good shot, and for my part, deserves to be treated as a hero. But then, in your defense, he and I know the people of Madison County better than you possibly could.
I seriously doubt that Miss Robin is a bigot, a racist, or a jack-booted storm trooper, and I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that John Storey is not. You have apparently gotten caught up in your rhetoric. Perhaps you should have counted to ten before answering her. Miss Robin perhaps does not see the moral dilemma. John Storey obviously does. I'm not sure that you do.
We have been around the block before on whether "freedom" is a "right," and you seemed then to confuse the terms "freedom," "liberty," and "rights." Perhaps now you can better appreciate that "rights" come into being when people agree, either de jure or de facto, to recognize them. Freedom is innate, existential, and liberty is what we have left of our freedom after we agree to respect other people's rights (and they ours).
Conflicts, nevertheless, still arise. So far, no one has been able to write a body of law (establishing rights) that never comes into conflict with people's desires (like your desire in this case to go to the ramparts in defense of illegal immigrants). The process by which such a body of law might come into being (from where we are) clearly does not involve pretending that the current laws do not exist. It involves recognizing the conflict between the status quo and what we think ought to be the case. Perhaps the work of people like Rev. Storey, and the opposition of people like Miss Robin, will help to bring the conflict into the clear light of day. But to the extent those who would make things better have to deal with the knee jerk posturings of people on the extremes, their work will be more difficult.
[Note. I counted to 10 before writing any of this. You have brutally attacked a man I know to be a good man. You owe him an apology.]
Fireworks in mouse-land! How exciting!
I agree with John Sweden's reaction -- although I don't share his emotional response -- to this lame little article about the worms. I gave it a glance yesterday but did not find it compelling enough to study it over and become inflamed at its too-cute-by-half metaphoric ramblings.
The immigration question is more than troubling in our country today -- that it should have been grappled with long ago is pointless to dwell upon. I have no solutions and won't even be baking cookies at this problem, but I'm more than willing to vote for someone who has a sensible plan for handling it. I'll give 'em a platform and a pancake griddle and a pat on the back.
But sermons being what they are, I see no reason to attack the mosquito with a sledge hammer (insect metaphor! Beware the wrath of Sweden!). I would expect no apology; perhaps John suffers from the malady describe in the newspaper today as Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED), in which case it can't be controlled, but will blow away soon only to be replaced when provoked anew.
Your sentiments noted, Miss Finding. You know John (S) better than I do, so I'll take your diagnosis as accurate. In any case, I stand by my decision to post the story, and by my friend, John Storey.
Hej Benedict,
It was not a ”Knee Jerk” response. I counted to a least 30 before I wrote it. If anybody owes the Reverend Storey an apology, it is you, for bringing his words, meant for a local audience, out into the world beyond the bridges of Madison County. That’s why you had to all that backtracking and framing of the context. Incidentally, if his simple publishing of an such innocuous metaphoric analogy is now the standard of for a heroic act, I think you have a lot more serious issues to reflect upon than illegal immigrants.
In my first response I admit I was having a little fun with the story, at an anonymous reverend’s expense, and maybe the words “little heretical mind” was a little impersonal, sarcastic and extreme. The truth is, in that response, I was just referring to the actual suffering the worms out there on the road in the literal, not metaphorical, terms of the story and the obvious religious and moral road not taken having observed and been made aware of their “wiggly” plights.
In terms of my response to Robin, she laid out the context for the reply and the serious nature in which in it was written. I will stand by every word I wrote. Robin and the Reverend Storey have to accept the consequences of their freely chosen words and images and the strident responses they might invoke.
I learned a long time ago, and in a very real way, that everyone no matter how liberal, accepting and non-biased they claim to be, are racists and bigots. Honestly accepting that is the first and most important step in dealing with your feelings on the issue. The point is not that you harbor these thoughts, but whether or not you go with the flow or fail to recognize their subtle influences on your thinking or fail to react to their manifestations. I choose to react clearly, strongly and honestly as I can in expressing my opinions the subject. I would suggest that you run this by the Reverend Storey. As he seems to be a man of reflection evidenced both by his article and your defense, I’m almost positive that he would understand and take to heart the honest point that I was making, with no apologies needed.
Just a point of correction here, I never said Robin was “Jack-booted Storm Trooper”, I reserved that for your glorious men in arms.
I think you should try counting to twenty next time.
Hej ff,
That was my point in the first blog. My IED Kicked in with Robin's response, which I felt needed a sledge hammer. She, I and Mouse, could probably use some those cookies now and nice cold glass of milk too.
Sorry, John, that I took you seriously. I will probably make that mistake several more times before we are through with this one.
As for taking a parochial story out into the big world ... what can I say. I know we're a bit backward out here in the mountains, but I actually thought there were some people out there just as backward as we are who might get something out of the story. I still think I'm right about that.
I read Miss Robin's comment and somehow missed the part about her being a bigotted racist. I'll probably make that mistake the next time I read it too. I guess I'll have to broaden my view a bit and try to see things that aren't there.
Hej Mouse,
I think we should wait for Robin to weigh in here and perhaps clarify the statement “No John Sweden, the worms reproduce quickly, kill off thousands and thousands more will replace them, quicker than a blink of an eye.” Maybe I got it wrong and she was also only referring the to real worms, and not the metaphorical ones. Let her tell us.
While we are waiting lets see if we get “ff” to send us a batch of those cookies.
My apologies:,kill off thousands and thoudands more will replace them,quicker than a blink of an eye.I didn't mean this literally,but what is America to do? I don't go for what Bush says,even though I am sure he is right,that most Americans won't work at menial jobs,but think of our health care system,welfare system and gangs and drugs.No,I am not a racist or bigot but laws are law3s.Yes John S.,I agree that the people that hire illegals should be fined or jailed,most of them pay under the table and claim no taxes.Do I have the right to not repay my government student loans?Why should I then if these others that think they are so above the laws to hire and pay illegals wages and not pay taxes.
For a citizen to have to have freedom, the citizen must have first call in the choice of a freedom or right, not the government decide on what is best for the citizen. If we want to continue this discussion I can write about Unions, jobs used to be covered by OSHA and other laws. Now, since the employees are unable to use the forces of Law, the employers are exploitative and
lawless.
Meatpacking used to be a very well-paid Union _career_ in generally safe and clean conditions.
Now meatpacking is a low-pay horror for the workers, no less than for the victims, and the conditions are terrible and lawless, and the number of food-poisoning cases and meat recalls are skyrocketing.
It amazes me, how some people will go into how bad the
lot is for illegals, a condition that the illegals themselves create,
and then beat their chests for any solution except removing those
illegals. So there you go.
How strange that mouse would post this particular piece,fate must be at work.I live in Kansas City,Ks and the illegal immigrants are swarming in my city. Recently a Washington immigration reform group called FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform) announced it would sue to block a new Kansas law signed last month that allows the children of illegal immigrants to pay in-state college tuition rates.
Other lawmakers in Congress support the Development, Relief,andEducation
for Alien Minors (DREAM) Act allowing children of illegal immigrants to seek legal residency and college aid. Still others push the Clear Law Enforcement
for Criminal Alien Removal (CLEAR) Act giving local police the federal
authority to arrest illegal immigrants. Others want illegal immigrants to have legal driver's licenses. Others don't.
In January, members of President Bush's own party criticized him for saying illegal aliens should be granted "guest worker" status under certain conditions. Anti-immigration forces bashed him for giving too much.
Pro-immigration forces bashed him for not giving enough.
Those opposed to undocumented workers in America point out that the presence of illegal immigrants is unlawful, a law that should be enforced. They argue that in a post-9/11 world, illegals could present a security risk, increase
crime or put additional burdens on our social, health and law enforcement services. Their presence may also jeopardize the chance for legal immigrants to come here.
The more sympathetic argue that illegals are working at jobs others don't want and that they pay taxes, spend money and, for the most part, are decent and law-abiding.
"Believe me, I'm not cold-hearted,"
But the idea of the police helping illegal aliens in a post-9/11 world galls me.
Illegal immigrants may not take jobs from other people,but they still cost taxpayers money in law enforcement, health care and social
services. They undercut employers who hire legally and diminish the chances for legal immigrants to enter the country.
"I often ask people who call me a racist or xenophobe, I say, 'What would you do if you came home one night and found some strange person sitting in your home? Are you going to cook them a meal? Or are you going to call the cops?'"
How about some of them cookies now?
The cookiemaker weighs in.
Is freedom free? Does it cost blood and bodies? The concept boggles the mind. I tend to agree that to my way of thinking freedom is free, and that it is a right, but that the problem is probably a semantic one. The old saw that my freedom ends at your nose. But the blood and bodies, and the joy of and need for war will always escape me. Even the hysteria of hating war seems to be an indulgence.
I guess I would say everybody is wrong. And cookies are probably wrong too. Now what?
Rev Storey's conclusion seems very compassionate; the fact that he has not, as yet, concluded the best course of action is very honest while his internal conflict is not at all uncommon among compassionate citizens.
The root cause of the immigration problem is rooted in social, economic,and political problems in Mexico. Corruption in that nation has been well-documented, lack of opportunity in that nation is self-evident and largely created by the aforementioned corruption ,and the chasm between the have's and have not's is as wide as the ocean that separates Sweden from New Jersey.
The most compassionate response to this problem may be found in efforts to significantly diminish corruption in Mexico while creating viable opportunities for its citizens.Obviously this is easier said than done in an atmosphere where it seems convenient to maintain status-quo.Perhaps the difficulty in creating opportunity and positive change in Mexico is the reason I hear very little about helping Mexico to change; or perhaps, unlike our Mexican brethern's attitudes toward American law we acknowledge the rights of Mexico's sovereignty.
Here in America we are literally over-taxed. We are over-taxed in our paychecks,in our schools, our health care system is overtaxed, our social welfare system, our corrections system, and law enforcement are all overtaxed and significantly impacted by this huge surge of illegal immigration.
This assault on our borders also impacts us pyschologically, we imagine that our culture is slipping away and being replaced by a culture that created the corruption, and lack of opportunity that made Mexico THE PLACE TO LEAVE.
We see our common language becoming less common, while protestors who are blantantly breaking our laws march in the streets , disrupting our cities and demanding thier rights.
The question for Americans is, is our culture and national identity worth saving and how much does this exodus from the south impact who we will become in the next twenty years. I believe in my heart that the best of America is certainly worth saving while there are still areas where we need to grow and change, since that is the case I also believe that we need to enforce our laws while finding a compassionate way to address the problems of our fellow human beings south or the border.
BTW I have read that Western Europe, and significantly Scandanavia is experiencing similiar problems with immigration . From what I have read those countries have taken a more strident course to address thier problems, and that thier citizens are at least equally concerned as America's citizens are with our immigration problem.
I think I'll let this one stay on top for a day or so. I think you've already defined the problem as a tough one, so now I'd love to see you wade in on something of a solution.
Pass the cookies.
P.S. Miss Finding, I was almost sure you would point out to Robin that it was erstwhile Fairhope temporary tennant Upton Sinclair's book The Jungle that led to progress in the meatpacking industry.
Hej everyone,
Nice to see that you all have laid your cards on the table.
ff: Cookies and the cookie makers are always needed and in short supply. One has to be irrationally, passionately and even hysterically if necessary Anti-war because there are so many who view the death, destruction, pain and misery that it brings as rational and viable alternatives for achieving their self-indulgent goals.
Robin: The reason I jumped all over the Reverend Storey’s use of worms as a description for human beings was precisely because of the responses it evoked in you. It allowed you to have and express the thought about a group of human beings, that because they bred in the thousands and would be replaced in the “blink of an eye”, it made little or no difference if you killed thousands. It is those thoughts that make you an expressed, in writing, bigot and a racist. As I pointed out in my response to mouse, we all harbor those feelings. I believe it is the mark of the progress of civilization that we actively acknowledge and restrain in ourselves and firmly, directly and peaceably, confront in others, the expression of those primitive, ugly and primal urges.
I could be wrong, but I remember reading in one of your blogs that you are 21. I would invite you to stop thinking of yourself as an American and instead take a broader view and come to know yourself as a unique and valued individual citizen of a world of 6.5 billion (going to 10 billion within your lifetime) unique and valued others. You are all going to need that perspective and viewpoint if you and your children and they and their children have any hope of surviving.
I am an avid reader of Naomi Klein (No Logo) and would love to talk about unions labor and all of those other issues. Check out Paul Craig Roberts for some good accurate conservative descriptions of what is happening and has happened to the American labor market.
John (America): I think a more accurate metaphor would be “what if you came home and found your lawn mowed, roof fixed, house cleaned, laundry done, the dishes washed and then found the person who did it sitting with dinner ready at the table. Would offer them a place at the table, a less than minimum job, or call the police?”
The problem with the racist xenophobe solution of calling on the police and troops to begin seeking out trying to arrest a minimum of 5–10 million people, half of whom are women children and the elderly, is that the cost of such an operation, just in terms of manpower, resources and legal proceeding alone would send CE racing to Sweden and begging for political asylum, just lower his tax burden. In the end, if you think the economic effects on business of the bad publicity of Bush’s war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan was disturbing. Just imagine the daily images of children be torn from their parents, the elderly in wheel chairs being pushed over the boarder at gun point by Haliburtran security agents and families being interviewed as the are returned to the impoverished communities from which they came, each with a story that would break your heart, would do to the bottom line of American Corporate accounts.
CE. As an immigrant and sitting member of the board of Göteborgs Equal Rights Movement, I can assure you that there are major, major differences between your immigration situation and that of Scandinavia and Western Europe. Briefly, in a very, very, overly simplified description; the main problems center not on illegal immigration but rather limiting social structural ability of legal immigrants, such as my blonde haired blue-eyed American self, and their offspring to integrate fully to their country’s economic and social structures. European countries are essentially racially defined societies. What I mean here, is that being a Swede is an actual racial and blood identity. So no matter how well I speak the language or adapt myself to Swedish culture, I will never be taken for or accepted as a Swede. The problems you see in Paris and around Europe, are more the result of these festering racial tensions with those of immigrant backgrounds. The issues as you can imagine are much more complex and deeper than this brief explanation of this one simple fundamental aspect would suggest.
In terms of accepting strict policies on immigration Europeans have always had very strong boarder and passport controls and immigration requirements. In a country like Sweden with only nine million and well-funded government structure the system is easy maintained and accepted as efficient. Since it seems you don’t want to pay taxes or accept your any responsibility to obey and enforce your own laws you must accept the consequences of your neglect.
That’s all for now I wish you all well and let’s keep blogging.
Mexico's President Vicente Fox makes our country his country by default.This Frosty guy is a radical, that's all. Any intelligent person can
see that. Of COURSE Mexico has plenty of problems, but things are
hardly as dire as being mentioned here wants to make them appear.
Again I am not racist, But I will be called that by people anyway, because the wrong-doers that I'm upset about are mostly a
particular race/ethnicity. These people expect you devolve your
society into anarchy and impovershment, because the color of the people involved is different than their own. I'l leave off the 5000 word psychological profile that describes such persons.
Given the volume of Mexican invasion and the corrupt influence that culture brings with their colonization, the number of corporate fascists within our
government, and the revolving door that exists between corporate executive office and public office, I think they are being entirely too kind, and that the rating for the US should be closer to that of Mexico, or maybe even higher.
No,we can't stop them because we, as a country, DON'T want to stop
them. Politicians want them, employers want them. Accept it, our
politicians do not represent us. Living wage jobs in the US are harder to come by since hordes of
illegal are depressing wages. The
rate of poverty in increasing and family incomes decreasing in the US.
Partly from outsourcing, partly from a bad education system, and
partly from illegal immigration.
I'd prefer outsourcing to illegals since the social costs fall
elsewhere.
"Since it seems you don’t want to pay taxes or accept your any responsibility to obey and enforce your own laws you must accept the consequences of your neglect."John S
Nonsense! I am more than willing to pay my taxes, and to do my share of the hard work to ensure that we live in a decent and compassionate society. Saying that we are overtaxed, literally and figuratively, is merely a statement of fact- but if you wish to infer from that statement that I don't want to pay my taxes you are more than free to remain steeped in ignorance. I suppose I should have consulted you, however, before I signed that petition last night asking my state legislators to raise our state sales tax by 1%.As to your assertion that I refuse to obey my country's laws I can go three ways 1) the beer is flowing freely in Sweden 2) you are using the collective you and not the personal singular you, or 3) you are trying to insult me. At any rate I am and have always been a law abiding citizen- but I guess once again you can remain steeped in ignorance if you choose to do so...
As to Europe's immigration problems being different( and by different I am assuming( perhaps erroneously) that you mean more righteous than America's immigration problem) I don't buy it.The fact is I have read a bit about the problems in France, England and especially in Denmark and the xenophobic response of citizens in those countries seems far more extreme than anything I have read about in America. The fact is the problems are very similar, the only difference being that Americans seem more concerned with the rights of individuals than our "well-reputed" counterparts in Scandanvia. I could site some articles on this topic but I figure what's the use-some folks just don't like America and like Noam Chomsky are hoping for its demise.At any rate if you wish to claim that your proximity to the European Immigration problem makes you an expert I will assert that my proximity and better yet John A's proximity make us experts on the American immigration problem.
We need to secure our borders and to implement policies that are fair to everyone while doing whatever possible to foster economic growth in Mexico and throughout the world.
At any rate, I am sure that good people can disagree on such things...
BTW John S this metaphor :"John (America): I think a more accurate metaphor would be “what if you came home and found your lawn mowed, roof fixed, house cleaned, laundry done, the dishes washed and then found the person who did it sitting with dinner ready at the table. Would offer them a place at the table, a less than minimum job, or call the police?”"Is lost on me, if I came home and found all of those things done I'd think I had been visited by my fairy god-mother; like the vast majority of Americans I DO all of the things mentioned in your fabled list for MYSELF. But even if I did not do all these things for myself, let's not get to misty about the illegal immigrants that do this work, the fact is they do not do these things out of the goodness of thier hearts- they do them for a day's pay. The fact that they hire themselves out far too cheaply is thier own( collective ) fault. The savings that cheap labor provides are usually pocketed by those who hire cheap labor and NOT realized by those recieving services.
So let's not romanticize the fact that individuals hire themselves out in the service industry, when they get thier pay they recieve thier reward...
The 7 or 8 illegal immigrants I have known are decent people who want to work hard and make a better life for themselves, but like Europe America has the right to protect its borders and enforce its laws.
Hej CE,
1) Yes, the beer is flowing freely in Sweden, and last I night sat down to a couple of icy cold Corona’s over at the Texas Longhorn; wish you all were there. 2) Yes, I am using the collective you and not the personal singular you. 3) No, I am most definitely not trying to insult you or anyone else.
As one of the most highly taxed citizens in the world and an enlightened beneficiary of the many benefits in being so, I am brought tears of ironic laughter every time I hear my former American compatriots continually, whining and moaning about how they are overtaxed. The question you should be asking yourself CE is “What went wrong and why do I now have to sign a petition to raise my taxes for education by a mere 1%?” It will be interesting to see how your overtaxed friends and neighbors respond to your petition for raising their taxes.
Actually I can’t take to much high ground here, even though I didn’t vote for him, because of his Military/Industrial Complex welfare spending priorities and his view that the homeless preferred to sleep on grates, there was a part of me that was with you all as we selfishly and foolishly cheered on the Carter/Regan/Friedman, government always bad, goofy, fairy tail, trickle down, tax cutting, supply side, voodoo economic theories. The basis of which was putting the money in my pocket would be better than giving it to the government and the wonders of the marketplace will solve all of our problems at virtually no expense or loss of essential services. They actually never did or intend to put the money in our pockets as evidenced by who got richer and who got poorer. Unfortunately Robin, along with your student loans, you’ll have to pick-up the tab for that as well both, culturally and economically.
There are no free lunches, as they say, and as Robin correctly points out, the gutting of every government agency including the INS has a cost.
For what its worth this is my perspective: The issue and its solution is not with the over breeding illegals, but those who hire, create and promote the opportunities for people to come illegally to your country in the first place. First address the previous under funding and neglect by raising necessary taxes in order to have sufficient funds to fully secure your borders and dry up the job market with a major strengthening of existing laws (meaning mandatory jail time, plus hefty fines) against the hiring of undocumented workers, backed by strict and overly aggressive enforcement. To support this I would also establish and fund a special court system designated to these particular crimes so that a quick and sure justice can be achieved. All the illegal aliens caught up in this enforcement effort, in return giving evidence against their criminal employers, would be given amnesty from prosecution along with landed immigrant status. After the normal naturalization process is completed they would be given the opportunity to become citizens. I would couple this with a billion dollar a year PR and Advertising campaign in those countries most likely to produce economic migrants focused on showing convicted employers going to jail with the message, “There are No Illegal Jobs to be Had, so don’t waste your time your money or your lives in coming.” After two to three years of this level of enforcement I would then grant all remaining illegal aliens Amnesty and landed immigrant status or a trip home if they desire. Then with your fully funded and operational system start enfrocing the total process of interdiction, aprehension, arrest, and deportation of newly arriving illegals
I beleive that would be in the true spirit of American justice and give meaning to those words of hope promise for all immigrants to your shores, “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door”.
As for the differences between European and American implications of their xenophobia and racism, I will have to save that for another post, as I unlike most of you retirees, I have a job to go to, which deals precisely with the results of those issues everyday.
OK. John Sweden has taken seriously my wish to see this discussion bend toward dreaming up a solution. He has laid out a clear framework for a potential solution. (1) Define and rigidly enforce laws to prosecute those hiring illegal immigrants. (2) Raise taxes and spend the additional revenues to strengthen border security. (3) For immigrants who testify against their (illegal) employers, grant "landed immigrant status." (4) Fund and put into place an ad campaign in some countries designed to show the futility of coming to America in search of illegal jobs. (5) After the program has achieved a certain level of success, grant amnesty to any remaining aliens.
How about a few comments now on this program. I personally subscribe to (1) because it fits well with my Spinozistic leanings: you change those things you have the power to change. In fact, I see nothing in the program that is not within our power to implement. Some of the ideas may be politically difficult, but then, that's the nature of all problems that present moral dilemmas.
OK. Have at it. Please, now, let's be "politic," leave personalities out of it, and discuss only the issues. Feel free, though, to add other points, or to modify some of John Sweden's.
Hej CE,
I have about an hour before the young people (16-20) start showing up for the evening’s activities here at the youth center. Since they are primarily the children of immigrants and hail from all parts of globe from, Vietnam to, Somalia, Gambia, South Africa, Iran, Iraq, Chile, Turkey, Serbia, Bosnia, Russia, Spain and Morocco, I thought it would be a good time to personally reflect a little on the blogs last few days. I feel pretty comfortable here at the center as it almost like being back in New York, where I was born raised and lived for fifty years before moving to Sweden, as an immigrant, in 1995. I’m thinking about how all my grandparents were immigrants, from Italy, Russia, Scotland and England by way of Canada and Portugal by of the island of Curacao in the Caribbean. My first wife’s, grandparents on both sides of the family were immigrants from Poland. I am also thinking of my wonderful brother, a retired NYC police officer, who himself is a Reverend and who ministers to an Hispanic church, and is married to wonderful woman who comes from Puerto Rico. I sincerely doubt that he would ever have conceived of, used or gotten away with Reverend Storey’s metaphoric description of America’s immigration problems.
In comparison to my multicultural heritage and background is my wonderful Swedish wife, one of the kindest, gentlest, giving souls ever to walk this earth. Her family is just as wonderful, solid, good people and the salt of the earth. On her mothers side, she can trace her family line back over a thousand years on the Baltic island of Gotland, her father an immigrant to Gotland, from the Swedish mainland, can trace his back in the area around Stockholm about six hundred years.
I guess I do have a lot of personal first hand knowledge and insight into the issues of immigration and immigrants on both sides of the Atlantic. I said that there were fundamental differences between the immigration problems of Europe and the United States and there are. It’s big mistake to compare the two as to the nature and depth of their perspective xenophobic reactions. I believe the American reaction is much more on the surface and less threatening personally than it is for Europeans.
America in my view has history of brief resistance to immigrant driven cultural intrusions followed by adaptation, expropriation and if possible assimilation. I believe this is because of American experience of personal social and ethnic boundaries as being slightly more fluid and dynamic, as exampled by my family’s recombination of the genetic pool. With each surge or wave immigrants has come the typical surge of ranting, ravings and fear mongering exploited and hyped by politicians and the media. But because America’s adopted social identity, as a nation of immigrants, is supported both in myth and reality by such a complex set of diverse groups and the social mixing along these fluid boundaries, those bigoted and xenophobic feelings are marginalized and dissipated relatively quickly.
My perception and experience of Europe is that while it experiences the same initial periodic surges of both the cultural intrusion and xenophobic responses of immigrants and their intrusion, the similarity ends there. In European culture there are limited mechanisms for adaptation, and virtually none for expropriation or the integration of cultural differences, and certainly none for assimilation. The social boundaries are not anywhere near as fluid or dynamic as they are in America. How could they be expected to be otherwise when you look at time lines and the evolving social structures supporting the persptions of the dominant social groups that are six hundred and thousand years in the making? The only viable comparison in the American experience I can think of would be the Native Americans having to develop a cultural and social structure capable of integrating and assimilating the newly arriving Europeans. European’s are not about to commit cultural suicide because the mechanisms of integration and assimilation are simply not there and probably will never be. So the depths of their xenophobia and fear of immigrant influences on the social structure I would argue are more real and potentially more lethal for both immigrants and the cultures they find themselves in.
In my opinion there has to be gentle dissolving and diluting of the of the concept of fixed ethnic identities by advocating more fluid ideas such as “ethnic influence” and replacing “integration” (which equates with colonization of mind) with new concepts of equal engagement and simple acceptance of differences. It is a great challenge and the stakes are pretty high for both Europeans and their perpetual held in place immigrant populations. I hope this answers some of questions.
Now I have to get to the business at hand. "Hussein...Abdi where's my paint brush?
Have a good day all.
You have good ideas John, I respect your opinion and agree about putting the responsibility for illegal immigration on the employers who are more than willing to hire them at a less-than living wage.I did know that you were an American and originally from NY.Thanks for the explanation. I need to run off to an awards banquet.
Mouse do you remember my mentioning a student I ahve who is gifted in art? She got a full scholarship to a summer art camp! It's a wonderful thing...
I beleive that would be in the true spirit of American justice and give meaning to those words of hope promise for all immigrants to your shores, “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door”."John Sweden" Don't play at being a Pollyanna.
Yeah right,maybe a hundred or so years ago,when we were a young nation and trying to get people to settle in America.
I applaud you though John Sweden with your most high superiority on how America Should be run.Why did you leave? And btw,I am unique,special and all that plus an American.
Part of the problem is not enforcing immigration laws resulting in
10,000,000 or more illegal aliens who are willing to work for sub par wages driving wages down for all. Bush has not made an effort to stop illegal imagration because his business supporters like this cheep labor.
There's a large difference between earlier waves of immigrants and
this one: This wave is uncontrolled. As a result, not only are the
numbers overwhelming, but because so many in this wave have chosen to
flout US immigration laws, they, as a group, are more likely to commit
crimes. The crime rate among illegals is extraordinary. And the
financial and human cost of providing for this wave is dramatically greater than any previous one. Help to earlier waves of immigrants consisted mainly of providing them with night school to learn English and minimum-wage and working-condition laws. Today, the costs are many times greater: free health care, free education K-12, subsidized higher education, easy-to-illegally-obtain social security, welfare,unemployment, housing subsidies, etc, plus the terrible financial and human costs of their high crime rate. Our schools, our health care system, and criminal justice system will likely soon be overwhelmed.
In addition, salaries are being driven down, forcing ever more
formerly middle-class US residents into poverty.
Uncontrolled immigration and its devastating effects would be
dramatically worsened further by President Bush's Guest Worker
proposal, described later. All Guest Workers' spouses, children,
parents, and siblings would receive legal status. And the chain would
extend far further: the Guest Worker or spouse could "sponsor" his or
her parents and brothers and sisters, and relatives, which means they can come to America legally. In turn, those relatives could sponsor
their relatives, ad infinitum. Bush's Guest Worker program is a dagger in the US middle class's heart.
What part of this John Sweden do you not understand?
I am going out for ice-cream,the cookies are getting stale.
Hej Robin,
At what point did I ever advocate throwing open the borders and what point will you actually propose some specific, concrete, viable solutions to your deal with your fears. I wonder how upset and alarmed you would be if you suddenly woke up one morning and found an extra 10 million illegal, breeding in the single digits, Canadians in your county.
The only comment I can make on Bush’s guest worker program is that he is not advocating it’s application to bring more gardeners into the U.S. It is directly aimed at bringing more highly educated and skilled workers such as engineers, systems dsigners, doctors and other professional workers where real savings in salaries can be had. Actually it was tried in Germany about 15 years ago and failed as globalization took hold and those professionals realized they could benefit more by staying put. They were right Germany and the west are now outsourcing the work to them.
Why did I leave? The very short version, America, had for me, lost the potential to be America. So I moved to a place where where the words “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men/women are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” had more of literal potential of realization because the government was commited fullfiling the obligations of these words “ — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”. That’s just me, I tend to take action on what I sincerely believe in. On almost every level I can think of Sweden is more actually more America, than America can ever hope to be.
Advertisement: “There are No Illegal Jobs to be Had, so don’t waste your time, your money or your lives in coming! and it’s alos pretty darn cold too”.
Hej Guys,
Here's an article in todays Arab News that I think offers a slightly different twist on the subject.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=83555&d=10&m=6&y=2006
If you can't download directly just go to www.arabnews.com and click on "Editorial: Overstayers
10 June 2006"
Have a great day
"The only sure way to ending mass illegal migration is by improving the economy in the migrants’ home country..." Overstayers Editorial
Thanks for recommending this interesting editorial John! The world is a small place but truth is universal.
I thought you'd like that one CE.
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